| exclusive Embattled lawyer VK Lingam knew two years beforehand of impending Anti-Corruption Agency (ACA) investigations against him, claimed his brother V Thirunama Karasu.
In a two-hour interview last week, to which he had agreed in order to refute Lingam’s allegation that he is delusional, Thirunama also responded in detail to issues that have placed both brothers in the media spotlight.
L ingam is alleged to be the person in video footage, apparently recorded in 2002, which reveals a telephone conversation purportedly ‘fixing’ judicial appointments. He has withheld comment on this pending an investigation by a royal commission of inquiry. 
Thirunama, 50, was drawn into the controversy after lawyer and politician Wee Choo Keong revealed a police report lodged in March which alleged other acts of judicial corruption by Lingam in 1988.
When Thirunama, who had lodged the report, was summoned by the ACA for questioning, Lingam responded with a statement claiming that his brother had previously sought psychiatric treatment and furnished copies of medical records to prove this.
D uring the interview, Thirunama claimed that family members had compelled him to “put up an act” in front psychiatric doctors to nullify his statements to the ACA.
He also revealed that he had once worked for Lingam and that he had been privy to several actions, including the transfer of large sums of money in anticipation of an ACA probe.
“I don’t know how he was tipped off that the ACA was coming,” he said.
The first of a three-part report on the interview follows - his manner of speaking has been maintained in the interests of authenticity.
Lingam claimed that you attempted suicide in 1981. Is that true?
There is no such thing. There are no medical records. Ask him to prove it.
In your police report, you said that, in 1996, your uncle rushed into an office and said that the ACA was coming. Tell us more about it.
In May 1996, my uncle - Perincuramasamy - came rushing in. At that time I was at my brother’s office. Dato VK (Lingam) was there. My sister, Chinmayadevi, was there. (Perincuramasamy) said that the ACA was coming.
(Lingam) panicked. He instructed me and my sister Devi and another person Francis Kok Chee Khoon to go to Oriental Bank in Jalan Sultan Ismail to withdraw a large sum of money from (his) account. I took RM275,000 and banked it into my Public Bank account. I have documents to prove I made that particular transaction.
What happened after that?
A fter that he asked us to make five bank drafts of 60,000 pound sterling each - also from his bank account - which he banked into the accounts of five persons. This is in my police report. Including myself, four people followed him to London (to bank in the money).
That would roughly be around RM1.5 million. That’s a large sum of money.
Francis Kok Chee Khoon also withdrew a large sum of money (from Lingam’s account).
So you are saying that even more money was withdrawn apart from what you witnessed.
Yes. Lingam was really panicky because of the ACA investigations into (national steelmaker) Perwaja Steel.
So (Lingam’s) account in Oriental Bank was emptied?
I don’t know. I can’t say if the account was emptied. I don’t know the balance.
What happened to the money that was in your Public Bank account and the account in London?
In London, the 60,000 pound was taken out by my brother in 1996. (There was forgery involved). I didn’t know about (the withdrawal). How did you know about it then?
I went to London to withdraw the money. They (the bank) said that it had been transferred into my brother’s (Lingam’s) account.
When did you go to London?
Probably in 1997.
The money in your Public Bank account?
I withdrew the money and gave it to (Lingam). He said it belonged to someone. He put pressure on me and mentioned a prominent figure’s name and said that it was his money and that he would come after me (if I don’t give back the money).
When was it withdrawn?
It was withdrawn in July (1996).
The main thing that I want to tell the public is that I don’t have a psychiatric problem because I was told to put up an act in 1998. I want you to know that’s my main reason to be here.
What happened in 1998?
In the first week of March 1998, my brother came to my house and told me to follow him. I followed him in his car and he asked whether I had given the photographs to a lawyer - to ‘Dato Shafie’.
What photos?
The photographs showing Lingam with the former chief judge, Tun Eusoff Chin.
I said I didn’t. Then he shouted at me and said I was the one who did it because I showed the travel manifest to that lawyer and that’s why (Dato Shafie) knew about the New Zealand trip. H e said that he (Lingam) showed me three photo albums of the New Zealand trip and that I was the only one who knew about this.
So he told me to follow him to a restaurant in Sea Park (Petaling Jaya). In the restaurant, my elder sister (Letchmi) was also there. In the restaurant, Lingam said that ‘everyone knows about the photographs’ and ACA knows about the New Zealand trip.
He said ACA is going to come to my house and take me and family members for questioning. He said I must not tell the ACA about his dealings with the judges, former IGP, Court of Appeal judge and all those mentioned in my police report.
He threatened me that something would happen to me. He mentioned a prominent figure would come after me and that my children would be kidnapped and that I would be arrested for mentioning the former IGP’s name.
He told me to go and hide in India. He said the ACA would definitely take me for questioning and force me to tell the truth and what I told the other lawyer (Shafie).
So, I don’t know how he was tipped off that the ACA was coming. That put more fear into me. He told me not to tell the ACA anything.
I told him that I can’t, because I’ve given a detailed statement to the lawyer (Dato Shafie). I can’t do that (lie to ACA). He said I better follow his instructions. That put fear into me. He was interfering with ACA investigations.
The whole conversation took place in the restaurant?
Yes.
Then what happened?
Then I went back home. It was a Sunday (March 8, 1998). The ACA officers came to my house. They were calling me from the gate. This would be the first time the ACA talked to me.
I didn’t open the door at first. Then they came to the back of my house and knocked very loudly. I told my wife that the ACA is here. I was sure because my brother had warned me beforehand.
I opened the door. They identified themselves. There were three of them. They said that I have given a statement to a lawyer. They said I have seen other prominent people (before) and told of my brother’s corruption with the judges and the former IGP. They said they are going to investigate on that.
They asked me to go with them. So I followed them to the ACA headquarters in Jalan Duta [...] and they introduced me to the officer there. They asked me to repeat what I told to the lawyers and (about) other matters in 1997. At first I was threatened (by the ACA), then I cooperated. They took my wallet. They took my keys. Everything.
They took a sheet of paper from my pocket - it was notes for my statutory declaration which I was preparing. It was meant to cancel my earlier statutory declaration which my brother made me sign in December 1997 at the Value Inn Hotel in Klang.
The ACA officers asked me about the paper and I explained. I told them I was about to go see a lawyer and ask for his opinion on how to go about nullifying my previous statutory declaration.
What did you tell ACA officers?
During the questioning, the ACA officers wanted to know what I told Dato Shafie and others. I told the ACA officers about all the corruption that my brother was doing between 1995 and 1996. I knew this as I was doing errands for him (Lingam). It was my first statement to them. The statement was recorded by a senior ACA officer.
Is the gist of what you told the ACA the same as what you wrote in your police report earlier this year?
Yes.
What happened after that?
The session lasted a few hours and I was released the same day by the ACA. I said that I didn’t want to go back because I was frightened and that my brother hand threatened me.
One officer, by the name of Razak, said that I could spend a night at the ACA and that his officers would send me back the next day.
The next day (March 9, 1998) I headed home, accompanied by two ACA officers. On the way home, they accompanied me to my bank where I have a safe-deposit box. I gave them some documents to show that there is connection to the judges (and Lingam). After that I went back home.
When did your brother find out (about your visit to the ACA)?
The same day. I told my sister who was in my house that I had given a statement to the ACA. My sister shouted at me, (saying) ‘Oh my god. Why did you do it? We already told you not to give any statement’.
I said that I can’t do anything because I can’t hide the truth. She rang up my brother and she told him what I did. On (Lingam’s) instructions, my sister told me to go see a psychiatric doctor and put up an act.
She said we’re all in trouble now because the ACA is coming after us. She said (Lingam) was emotional and that his wife was crying (because of me). She said my children are in danger because I have mentioned all the prominent figures.
She called my brother again. She told me go to my wife’s panel doctor. She told me to put up an act and the doctor would refer me to a psychiatric doctor.
H ow did you put on an act?
I acted like I was suicidal. I was crying and all that.
That was what they told you to do?
Yes. They told me to.
You must be pretty good in putting up an act...
They have threatened me too many times. They said my children would be kidnapped. They said the police were going to arrest me.
So you were very scared at the time?
Yes.
And after that?
I went to a clinic in Petaling Jaya and I put up an act. I was acting like I was very depressed and emotional. I went there on my motorbike. They gave me a referral letter to see Dr Deva Dass.
(A letter by Dr Deva Dass alleging Thirunama’s psychiatric problems was distributed to the press last week by Lingam).
I explained to Dass that I had some family problems and that I’m very depressed. I became emotional. He was taking down notes. He gave me a prescription. I did not tell that I was under ACA investigations because my sister told me not to. She told me to just say that it was a family problem.
How long did you spend with Dr Dass?
Half an hour.
What happened after that?
He told me to take some medication.
Did you ever see Dass again?
My first visit was on March 10 (1998, and again the next day).
What kind of medication did he give you?
I didn’t take any of the medicine, because I know I was not sick. In total, during the two days I visited him, he gave me about 15-20 tablets.
What happened next?
On March 12, the ACA came to my house again for questioning. They said they had left out some things (in the earlier interrogation). When I went to ACA, I was reluctant to proceed further with the first statement. I told them that I wanted to make a second statement. Before that, my sister (had) told me to say that the ACA officer threatened and assaulted me to get my first statement. So I told one officer that one of the officers had assaulted me (to obtain the first statement).
They then called the officer (who recorded the first statement to ask) whether I was beaten up. The officer replied 'No'. I (had) lied (about this). A senior officer (then) asked if I was threatened by anyone. I didn’t tell them (about threats from family members). I was frightened to tell them.
What else did you say?
They asked me if I had been threatened and why I was making a second statement. I told them that my first statement was not true. But I did not tell that I visited a psychiatric doctor.
A lot of officers came and see me. They told me not to do this. They said I was helping the Malaysian government to clean up the system. They said ‘Why are you doing this?’.
I didn’t answer them of course. There is fear because my brother had threatened me. The fear is fresh in my mind. I had no choice.
Did you tell them that your brother threatened you?
No. I didn’t tell them.
How long were you there? Do you remember?
The second one was very short. When I was telling a lie, it looked very stupid. I told them that I don’t know where the former chief judge’s (former Chief Justice Eusoff Chin) house is. So I followed (Eusoff) from the court to his house. The second statement I made was very ridiculous.
T hey wrote it. After taking down my (second) statement, an ACA officer said I was contradicting my first statement. Under the ACA Act, he said he would remand me for eight days to investigate me. They handcuffed me and took me somewhere to see a magistrate. I told the magistrate that I had a family to care for and he reduced the remand to six days. I was taken to Taman Tun (Dr) Ismail police lock-up and kept there.
Did the ACA interrogate you during those six days?
They used to come and take me to show (them) where all the judges’ houses are (located). I showed them all the judges’ houses... all the houses mentioned in my police report. They wanted to know whether what I was saying (to the ACA in my first statement) was true. How could I known all these houses if I had never been there before?
During these six days, were you telling the truth?
Yes. They questioned me further about the things that I delivered to the judges.
Did they ask you about your second statement?
I told them I was frightened because all these people are implicated and I had been threatened.
You used to drive your brother for meetings at these houses?
Usually at night. When I drive him there, he would carry a big bundle of files. When I go back to pick him up he would only have one small files. I used to do that in different cars.
Why different cars?
He doesn’t want people to see the same car going there every time.
How long are these meetings?
Two, sometimes three hours.
You waited?
He would ask me to go back home. He would call me (when he needed to be picked up).
How often did these meetings with Eusoff Chin take place?
It could be (between) six to eight times (that I know of). This was from 1995 until 1996.
You are not the only person to drive him. Is that right?
There was a former driver. He told me (about driving Lingam to Eusoff’s house).
D id your brother tell you why he went to Eusoff’s house?
He said he had important cases to discuss. From that I know of his connections with the former judges. One time, in the car, I told him to be careful and not to do this. He said nobody knows about it.
So after six days in remand, were you released?
No. On the sixth day of remand - March 17, 1998 - they took a third statement from me. A high-ranking ACA officer told me, very politely, ‘Look, after all you’re going to speak the truth. You are going to open up in public. We’re here to clean up the judiciary. Don’t be frightened of your brother. Don’t be frightened of anyone. Just give a true statement’.
I gave a detailed third statement to the senior officer.
Is the third statement any different from your first?
It had more details than the first statement. Because the first statement, I still had fear because of my brother’s threat in that restaurant (in 1996). I was also worried then that he knew the ACA was coming to his house and mine. There was a tip-off.
What happened after the third statement?
My sister came to pick me up.
Tomorrow: Thirunama describes how three lawyers and his family members ‘forced’ him to be admitted to a psychiatric ward in a hospital. |
